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	<title>Comments on: Readers&#8217; Forum: How do we identify the good guys?</title>
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	<description>The insider's edge on job search &#38; hiring™ &#124; Copyright © 2008 North Bridge Group, Inc. All rights reserved.</description>
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		<title>By: bryan</title>
		<link>http://corcodilos.com/blog/880/readers-forum-how-do-we-identify-the-good-guys/comment-page-1#comment-28195</link>
		<dc:creator>bryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 23:50:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://corcodilos.com/blog/?p=880#comment-28195</guid>
		<description>to all of you that are pro personality test.  it is nothing more than another means of discrimination and opens a door to legal problems. the best workers i have ever had were persons who by all means were the most unpersonable individuals. all of whom just wanted latitude to be who they are.  When given that freedom the far out worked any of the so called people with in the norm of personlaity standards. Yes they can sometimes be a handful to deal with but this is the human condition. So if you really wsh to run the gambit of having a legal discrimination case brought against you by all means continue with thinking a personality test is the way to go.  heres a hint sit down and get to know your potential hire over the course of an interview. and then make a descision.  fascist crap makes me wanna puke.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>to all of you that are pro personality test.  it is nothing more than another means of discrimination and opens a door to legal problems. the best workers i have ever had were persons who by all means were the most unpersonable individuals. all of whom just wanted latitude to be who they are.  When given that freedom the far out worked any of the so called people with in the norm of personlaity standards. Yes they can sometimes be a handful to deal with but this is the human condition. So if you really wsh to run the gambit of having a legal discrimination case brought against you by all means continue with thinking a personality test is the way to go.  heres a hint sit down and get to know your potential hire over the course of an interview. and then make a descision.  fascist crap makes me wanna puke.</p>
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		<title>By: Seattle Interview Coach</title>
		<link>http://corcodilos.com/blog/880/readers-forum-how-do-we-identify-the-good-guys/comment-page-1#comment-18406</link>
		<dc:creator>Seattle Interview Coach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 15:54:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://corcodilos.com/blog/?p=880#comment-18406</guid>
		<description>Nick, great question!  I answered your question on my blog:

How to Check a Job Candidate&#039;s Personality
http://blog.seattleinterviewcoach.com/2009/09/how-to-check-job-candidates-personality.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick, great question!  I answered your question on my blog:</p>
<p>How to Check a Job Candidate&#8217;s Personality<br />
<a href="http://blog.seattleinterviewcoach.com/2009/09/how-to-check-job-candidates-personality.html" rel="nofollow">http://blog.seattleinterviewcoach.com/2009/09/how-to-check-job-candidates-personality.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Susan</title>
		<link>http://corcodilos.com/blog/880/readers-forum-how-do-we-identify-the-good-guys/comment-page-1#comment-17865</link>
		<dc:creator>Susan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 21:31:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://corcodilos.com/blog/?p=880#comment-17865</guid>
		<description>I just read what G wrote regarding a software design applicant testing experience.  I took a test just like that with a large company for a similar position.  Although I did well on the test, I couldn&#039;t see what they were learning from it.  The test really had nothing to do with the job or the skills required for the job.  They also made me take several more tests that lasted for hours.  

Since I had only learned what they were offering for hourly salary that morning (the recruiter wouldn&#039;t divulge the secret amount), I used some of the testing time when I was bored to figure out that the whole thing was pointless.  Working there full-time at the hourly salary they were offering would have earned a gross salary of about $24,000 per year with terrible working hours.  Upon realizing this, I asked why I would want to work that hard mentally for less than the man who collects my garbage at the curb makes, and I left.  I don&#039;t mind terrible working hours as long as the compensation is decent.

I agree with Nick that talking about or even solving actual job-related problems or situations is a far better test than these pseudo IQ tests some hiring managers fire at you.  Even if I have a high IQ, I might not be the best person to help your business make money.

As far as the personality tests are concerned, the test I&#039;ve seen ask about the same questions.  Smart people know not to choose answers like I don&#039;t like to work with others or I always need to have my way in the office or whatever silliness they ask.  I had to answer a personality survey to get my current teaching job.  It is quite obvious that some of my coworkers did not answer their personality test honestly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just read what G wrote regarding a software design applicant testing experience.  I took a test just like that with a large company for a similar position.  Although I did well on the test, I couldn&#8217;t see what they were learning from it.  The test really had nothing to do with the job or the skills required for the job.  They also made me take several more tests that lasted for hours.  </p>
<p>Since I had only learned what they were offering for hourly salary that morning (the recruiter wouldn&#8217;t divulge the secret amount), I used some of the testing time when I was bored to figure out that the whole thing was pointless.  Working there full-time at the hourly salary they were offering would have earned a gross salary of about $24,000 per year with terrible working hours.  Upon realizing this, I asked why I would want to work that hard mentally for less than the man who collects my garbage at the curb makes, and I left.  I don&#8217;t mind terrible working hours as long as the compensation is decent.</p>
<p>I agree with Nick that talking about or even solving actual job-related problems or situations is a far better test than these pseudo IQ tests some hiring managers fire at you.  Even if I have a high IQ, I might not be the best person to help your business make money.</p>
<p>As far as the personality tests are concerned, the test I&#8217;ve seen ask about the same questions.  Smart people know not to choose answers like I don&#8217;t like to work with others or I always need to have my way in the office or whatever silliness they ask.  I had to answer a personality survey to get my current teaching job.  It is quite obvious that some of my coworkers did not answer their personality test honestly.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Corcodilos</title>
		<link>http://corcodilos.com/blog/880/readers-forum-how-do-we-identify-the-good-guys/comment-page-1#comment-17843</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Corcodilos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:50:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://corcodilos.com/blog/?p=880#comment-17843</guid>
		<description>@Sam: I think you sum it up pretty well. It&#039;s all a choice. People seem to get hung up on bosses bossing. But it&#039;s a choice. And as you say, if you&#039;re going to commit to the authority, you have two main choices :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Sam: I think you sum it up pretty well. It&#8217;s all a choice. People seem to get hung up on bosses bossing. But it&#8217;s a choice. And as you say, if you&#8217;re going to commit to the authority, you have two main choices :-)</p>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://corcodilos.com/blog/880/readers-forum-how-do-we-identify-the-good-guys/comment-page-1#comment-17831</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 07:21:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://corcodilos.com/blog/?p=880#comment-17831</guid>
		<description>Nick,

You said,
&quot;It’s not always possible to explain, teach, justify. Sometimes the key element at play is trust, which a boss (and parent) must obviously earn.

But as on a battlefield, everything sometimes depends on trusting and following orders – even if you disagree and, sorry to say, even if you know you are right and the boss is wrong. A kid who disregards instruction from the parent (or hesitates) can wind up hurt.&quot;

I think an unstated assumption here is that all the &quot;authority&quot; belongs to the manager, but really the ultimate authority in a manager-employee relationship is equal. 

A manager can fire the employee at any time, but the employee can quit at anytime too (thus &quot;firing&quot; his boss) 

I know this sounds like a lame and pointless equality, because the employee does have to eat, but think of it this way...

If a manager loses an employee due to &quot;irrational tyranny&quot;, he has a big price to pay. A lost employee is a loss in productivity for a time being. The manager has to pay for the costs of searching for another decent employee, the manager might suffer a loss in reputation since word about this stuff goes around (esp to other employees, affecting their morale) All these negative consequences could place the manager&#039;s job in jeopardy if he doesn&#039;t straighten out.

So if the employee turns out to be right, he can quit and have the manager take the real losses (and the employee can find a better manager and job using ask the headhunter!). Yes, employees have to eat, so they produce. However, managers have to produce, or they wont eat. Managers that continuously exhibit bad leadership don&#039;t manage for long, as continuously bad employees do not stay employed for long. 

As far whether its smart to obey all the manager&#039;s orders, I don&#039;t have time to go into that, but I&#039;ll say this: Always question authority, but if you decide to commit to an authority, stay committed or quit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick,</p>
<p>You said,<br />
&#8220;It’s not always possible to explain, teach, justify. Sometimes the key element at play is trust, which a boss (and parent) must obviously earn.</p>
<p>But as on a battlefield, everything sometimes depends on trusting and following orders – even if you disagree and, sorry to say, even if you know you are right and the boss is wrong. A kid who disregards instruction from the parent (or hesitates) can wind up hurt.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think an unstated assumption here is that all the &#8220;authority&#8221; belongs to the manager, but really the ultimate authority in a manager-employee relationship is equal. </p>
<p>A manager can fire the employee at any time, but the employee can quit at anytime too (thus &#8220;firing&#8221; his boss) </p>
<p>I know this sounds like a lame and pointless equality, because the employee does have to eat, but think of it this way&#8230;</p>
<p>If a manager loses an employee due to &#8220;irrational tyranny&#8221;, he has a big price to pay. A lost employee is a loss in productivity for a time being. The manager has to pay for the costs of searching for another decent employee, the manager might suffer a loss in reputation since word about this stuff goes around (esp to other employees, affecting their morale) All these negative consequences could place the manager&#8217;s job in jeopardy if he doesn&#8217;t straighten out.</p>
<p>So if the employee turns out to be right, he can quit and have the manager take the real losses (and the employee can find a better manager and job using ask the headhunter!). Yes, employees have to eat, so they produce. However, managers have to produce, or they wont eat. Managers that continuously exhibit bad leadership don&#8217;t manage for long, as continuously bad employees do not stay employed for long. </p>
<p>As far whether its smart to obey all the manager&#8217;s orders, I don&#8217;t have time to go into that, but I&#8217;ll say this: Always question authority, but if you decide to commit to an authority, stay committed or quit.</p>
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		<title>By: Small World</title>
		<link>http://corcodilos.com/blog/880/readers-forum-how-do-we-identify-the-good-guys/comment-page-1#comment-17815</link>
		<dc:creator>Small World</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:00:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://corcodilos.com/blog/?p=880#comment-17815</guid>
		<description>Could I flip the question over? I recently had to identify whether a hiring manager was one of the good guys, even when he was trying to figure our whether I was. (I am, of course.) 

I went about it more or less the way I would have if I&#039;d been the one doing the hiring. I asked for references, spent time with the person, talked with his colleagues, and tried to use my gut. This person has excellent sales skills, so in person I was sold. After each meeting, though, my gut was uncomfortable. In the end, I called someone I knew well and trusted, whom I knew would have know the manager through our professional association. This wasn&#039;t a reference, this was a friend in the industry, whose network overlapped the manager&#039;s. My friend shared impressions and experiences that confirmed my gut response. I didn&#039;t take the job.

Hiring managers and HR folks probably hate my approach, on the grounds that it&#039;s prone to prejudice, hearsay, and so forth, not to mention the very unscientific gut reaction. What say you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could I flip the question over? I recently had to identify whether a hiring manager was one of the good guys, even when he was trying to figure our whether I was. (I am, of course.) </p>
<p>I went about it more or less the way I would have if I&#8217;d been the one doing the hiring. I asked for references, spent time with the person, talked with his colleagues, and tried to use my gut. This person has excellent sales skills, so in person I was sold. After each meeting, though, my gut was uncomfortable. In the end, I called someone I knew well and trusted, whom I knew would have know the manager through our professional association. This wasn&#8217;t a reference, this was a friend in the industry, whose network overlapped the manager&#8217;s. My friend shared impressions and experiences that confirmed my gut response. I didn&#8217;t take the job.</p>
<p>Hiring managers and HR folks probably hate my approach, on the grounds that it&#8217;s prone to prejudice, hearsay, and so forth, not to mention the very unscientific gut reaction. What say you?</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Corcodilos</title>
		<link>http://corcodilos.com/blog/880/readers-forum-how-do-we-identify-the-good-guys/comment-page-1#comment-17809</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Corcodilos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:01:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://corcodilos.com/blog/?p=880#comment-17809</guid>
		<description>@Karsten: I&#039;m still ROTF... you captured the HR phoner...

@Jason: I think I started learning a lot more than I knew about trust, authority, respect, cooperation and leadership when my kids became teenagers. They naturally question everything, and each time is an opportunity to teach, learn, grow. Sometimes patience in &quot;the boss&quot; is a virtue. Sometimes, just following orders is a virtue in the staff (or kids). It&#039;s not always possible to explain, teach, justify. Sometimes the key element at play is trust, which a boss (and parent) must obviously earn.

But as on a battlefield, everything sometimes depends on trusting and following orders - even if you disagree and, sorry to say, even if you know you are right and the boss is wrong. A kid who disregards instruction from the parent (or hesitates) can wind up hurt.

That&#039;s perhaps one of the most difficult ideas in management. Short of doing something unethical or illegal, an employee&#039;s first duty is to take an order. Fundamentally, that&#039;s what we are paid for. Naturally, we might disagree vehemently and in the most extreme case, quit. (And kids can move out.)

Trust is earned. But where there is leadership, there is also the implied agreement to follow orders. It&#039;s implied in any circumstance where a leader is accepted.

Sounds a bit harsh, but employees can&#039;t talk about great leaders without being willing to take the leader&#039;s orders. Sometimes without question (until later, anyway!).

Back to your comments, Jason - sometimes there is no time or opportunity to answer the question, &quot;Why?&quot; The real challenge lies in deciding what to do at that point, as the employee, before you have developed trust in your leader/boss. Do you do what you&#039;re told, and ask questions later? (Hopefully, you&#039;ve got trust by then, but not always.) And hopefully, this is a rare occurence.

Maybe I&#039;m getting too philosophical and talking too much in the abstract. I don&#039;t disagree with anything you&#039;re saying. But as a parent, I worry about that instance where someone has to lead, and someone has to follow without question. Likewise as a manager.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Karsten: I&#8217;m still ROTF&#8230; you captured the HR phoner&#8230;</p>
<p>@Jason: I think I started learning a lot more than I knew about trust, authority, respect, cooperation and leadership when my kids became teenagers. They naturally question everything, and each time is an opportunity to teach, learn, grow. Sometimes patience in &#8220;the boss&#8221; is a virtue. Sometimes, just following orders is a virtue in the staff (or kids). It&#8217;s not always possible to explain, teach, justify. Sometimes the key element at play is trust, which a boss (and parent) must obviously earn.</p>
<p>But as on a battlefield, everything sometimes depends on trusting and following orders &#8211; even if you disagree and, sorry to say, even if you know you are right and the boss is wrong. A kid who disregards instruction from the parent (or hesitates) can wind up hurt.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s perhaps one of the most difficult ideas in management. Short of doing something unethical or illegal, an employee&#8217;s first duty is to take an order. Fundamentally, that&#8217;s what we are paid for. Naturally, we might disagree vehemently and in the most extreme case, quit. (And kids can move out.)</p>
<p>Trust is earned. But where there is leadership, there is also the implied agreement to follow orders. It&#8217;s implied in any circumstance where a leader is accepted.</p>
<p>Sounds a bit harsh, but employees can&#8217;t talk about great leaders without being willing to take the leader&#8217;s orders. Sometimes without question (until later, anyway!).</p>
<p>Back to your comments, Jason &#8211; sometimes there is no time or opportunity to answer the question, &#8220;Why?&#8221; The real challenge lies in deciding what to do at that point, as the employee, before you have developed trust in your leader/boss. Do you do what you&#8217;re told, and ask questions later? (Hopefully, you&#8217;ve got trust by then, but not always.) And hopefully, this is a rare occurence.</p>
<p>Maybe I&#8217;m getting too philosophical and talking too much in the abstract. I don&#8217;t disagree with anything you&#8217;re saying. But as a parent, I worry about that instance where someone has to lead, and someone has to follow without question. Likewise as a manager.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://corcodilos.com/blog/880/readers-forum-how-do-we-identify-the-good-guys/comment-page-1#comment-17804</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:09:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://corcodilos.com/blog/?p=880#comment-17804</guid>
		<description>Nick,

I can&#039;t believe you said that either.  

I guess I&#039;m just really sensitive as a subordinate to having a boss who cannot explain why a particular action needs to be done.

Conversely as a leader I hardly ever like to use the explanation &quot;because I said so.&quot;  If I don&#039;t have a good explanation for something, even if its just &quot;because management requires it,&quot; I don&#039;t feel I&#039;m leading correctly.

If as a boss, my supervisor is open and honest with me about what needs to be done and what they want me to do, I will be their best lieutenant.  If my supervisor micromanages me and the tasks I&#039;m doing, I frankly can barely stand it.

Its just a hot button of mine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick,</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t believe you said that either.  </p>
<p>I guess I&#8217;m just really sensitive as a subordinate to having a boss who cannot explain why a particular action needs to be done.</p>
<p>Conversely as a leader I hardly ever like to use the explanation &#8220;because I said so.&#8221;  If I don&#8217;t have a good explanation for something, even if its just &#8220;because management requires it,&#8221; I don&#8217;t feel I&#8217;m leading correctly.</p>
<p>If as a boss, my supervisor is open and honest with me about what needs to be done and what they want me to do, I will be their best lieutenant.  If my supervisor micromanages me and the tasks I&#8217;m doing, I frankly can barely stand it.</p>
<p>Its just a hot button of mine.</p>
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		<title>By: Karsten</title>
		<link>http://corcodilos.com/blog/880/readers-forum-how-do-we-identify-the-good-guys/comment-page-1#comment-17801</link>
		<dc:creator>Karsten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:27:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://corcodilos.com/blog/?p=880#comment-17801</guid>
		<description>Nick, 

You are of course right that sometimes managers must do exactly that, manage, including giving orders. But I think an important difference between a good and a bad manager is that a good manager will earn the trust of his people, by explaining what he wants do get done and why, and involving them. Thus, his people will also trust his judgement those times where there is no time for explanations. A bad manager is one who just commands. 

As a corrolary on ethics, seven years ago I telephone-interviewed with one of the big oil giant companies. Since I am a geologist, I was of course interviewed by a HR rep whose background was in law :D I didn&#039;t get further, because (OK, somewhat simplified:):

HR: You must sell yourself better, don&#039;t be nuanced! If you are going to sell an oil development project to your manager, you must focus only on the positives of that project, not the problems!
Me: But there are uncertainties and risks in all upstream projects. Wouldn&#039;t hiding them be to lie to my own manager? 
HR: Eh...umm...eh...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick, </p>
<p>You are of course right that sometimes managers must do exactly that, manage, including giving orders. But I think an important difference between a good and a bad manager is that a good manager will earn the trust of his people, by explaining what he wants do get done and why, and involving them. Thus, his people will also trust his judgement those times where there is no time for explanations. A bad manager is one who just commands. </p>
<p>As a corrolary on ethics, seven years ago I telephone-interviewed with one of the big oil giant companies. Since I am a geologist, I was of course interviewed by a HR rep whose background was in law :D I didn&#8217;t get further, because (OK, somewhat simplified:):</p>
<p>HR: You must sell yourself better, don&#8217;t be nuanced! If you are going to sell an oil development project to your manager, you must focus only on the positives of that project, not the problems!<br />
Me: But there are uncertainties and risks in all upstream projects. Wouldn&#8217;t hiding them be to lie to my own manager?<br />
HR: Eh&#8230;umm&#8230;eh&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Corcodilos</title>
		<link>http://corcodilos.com/blog/880/readers-forum-how-do-we-identify-the-good-guys/comment-page-1#comment-17790</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Corcodilos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 14:30:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://corcodilos.com/blog/?p=880#comment-17790</guid>
		<description>@Another Steve, @Glenn: Both sides of the &quot;references&quot; coin are valid. Glenn is right: references can be situational. That is, they are valid in one circumstance, but not in another. But I&#039;d never hire anyone (or recruit anyone, for that matter) without talking to people who know the individual. That carries far more weight with me than even the job interview itself. It&#039;s an art to talk to references and get a straight story.

But as with tests, references still require the judgment of the user. Too many managers/HR folks I&#039;ve known will justify a decision to hire or not hire by citing tests or references. While it&#039;s fine to consider either tool &quot;necessary,&quot; neither is sufficient. Gotta use your judgment to pull all the info together, and then add more judgment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Another Steve, @Glenn: Both sides of the &#8220;references&#8221; coin are valid. Glenn is right: references can be situational. That is, they are valid in one circumstance, but not in another. But I&#8217;d never hire anyone (or recruit anyone, for that matter) without talking to people who know the individual. That carries far more weight with me than even the job interview itself. It&#8217;s an art to talk to references and get a straight story.</p>
<p>But as with tests, references still require the judgment of the user. Too many managers/HR folks I&#8217;ve known will justify a decision to hire or not hire by citing tests or references. While it&#8217;s fine to consider either tool &#8220;necessary,&#8221; neither is sufficient. Gotta use your judgment to pull all the info together, and then add more judgment.</p>
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